Read to p. 222 in Beloved (to the page break at the top-ends at “holding his wrists between his knees and looking red-eyed”)
Annotate for passages that are especially significant, but focus on Stamp’s perspectives, since he is, in many ways, an objective observer in this story.
Blog Post #5: choose one passage, from Stamp’s perspective, that either tells you something different about a character (Sethe, Paul, Denver, Baby Suggs or Beloved), or affirms what you already thought about a character. Write out the passage, with page #, and explain how it affirms or goes against what you previously thought about that person.
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ReplyDeleteSorry I posted from my friends computer
Delete"'I been tired all my days, bone-tired, but now it's in the marrow. Must be what Baby Suggs felt when she lay down and thought about color for the rest of her life.' When she told him what her aim was, he thought she was ashamed and too shamed to say so" (208)
ReplyDeleteWhat Stamp Paid says here about Baby Suggs makes sense to me because she probably was tired all of her life and didn't really get to rest until once she passed away. The second part is what goes against what I thought of Baby Suggs before this. The sense I got about Baby Suggs before this line was that she was a strong minded woman who would never become ashamed of pretty much anything. This just didn't really seem like her to be ashamed, especially when just talking to one of her best friends that she trusted.
"laughed till they coughed. Sethe rose to her hands and knees, laughter still shaking her chest, making her eyes wet. She stayed that way for a while, on all fours. But when her laughter died, the tears did not and it was some time before Beloved and Denver knew the difference. When they did they touched her lightly on the shoulders."(206)
ReplyDeleteThis quote definitely affirmed for me that Sethe is a broken women who truly needs help and no one sees that. Everyone believes that Sethe is no good, she has no man around, she didn't raise all her kid right and all these other things but fail to see and understand that she has tried her hardest as a mother to actually be the BEST mother possible to her one remaining daughter and to the daughter that has returned. And although they have nothing, it's the small moments such as walking through town holding hands or ice skating with her daughters and laughing until they can't laugh anymore, that really mean the most to her and what she tries to do for them with the little that she has to offer. It shows for how really broken she is when she 1. she doesn't get to laugh alot and 2. the laughter that finally emerged turned into tears, which means she has been holding a lot in for a very long time.
“Even if Sethe could deal with the return of the spirit, Stamp didn’t believe her daughter could. Denver needed somebody normal in her life…before he gave Paul D the news that ran him off, the one normal somebody in the girl’s life since Baby Suggs died” (200-201).
ReplyDeleteThrough the assertion that Denver lacks a normal parental figure in her life, Stamp Paid criticizes Sethe’s maternal abilities. Despite her attempts, Sethe fails to provide safety and security in Denver’s life, which according to Winnicott, are two essential factors that contribute to the proper development of children. Since Denver has been trained to fear Sethe, she does not have a “normal” mother figure leading to her anxiety over abandonment. Compared to Baby Suggs, Sethe does not possess the same excessive caring characteristic over other people, which contributes to Stamp Paid’s overall negative view on Sethe.
"Sethe rose to her hands and knees,laughter still shaking her chest, making her eyes wet. She stayed that way for a while, on all fours. But when her laughter died, the tears did not and it was some time before Beloved or Denver knew the difference. When they did they touched her lightly on the shoulders" (206).
ReplyDeleteThis passage contradicts what I thought about Sethe, because it shows that she's capable of crying and showing her emotions. It goes against the past descriptions of her always having iron eyes. It's especially surprising because she's crying in front of her own children, and not trying to hide it from them. Sethe always seemed so preoccupied with doing what was best for her children, and protecting them that she never seemed to be able to do what was best for herself and do what Baby Suggs tells her to do, letting down her guard.
"Holding hands, bracing each other, they swirled over the ice. Beloved wore the pair; Denver wore one, step-gliding over the treacherous ice. Sethe thought her two shoes would hold and anchor her. She was wrong. Two paces onto the creek, she lost her balance and landed on her behind. The girls, screaming with laughter, joined her on ice. Sethe struggled to stand and discovered not only that she could do a split, but that it hurt. Her bones surfaced in unexpected places and so did laughter. Making a circle or a line, the three of them could not stay upright for one whole minute, but nobody saw them falling." (205)
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I feel so bad for Sethe. Everyone views her as such a horrible person for what she did to her children but she clearly loves them dearly and is hurting. Had schoolteacher stayed away she would be ice skating with all her children. People do stupid things out of fear and obviously the fear of schoolteacher and the power he possessed frightened her the most. After reading this passage and more on the next pages, i can see that inside she really wanted to keep her kids from the horrible life she lived and in that moment all the fear she had, showed her that the only way to avoid such a life was having no life at all. Sethe is obviously lonely and heart broken. Sethe has always portrayed herself as the strong one who cannot be broken, however, it is clear that she has been broken this whole time. Seeing such a loving side of her has changed my perspective of her a lot :/
"Baby Suggs went down next to the baby with its throat cut--a neighborliness that Stamp wasn't sure had Baby Suggs approval...[Sethe] went instead to the gravesite, whose silence she competed with as she stood there not joining in the hymns the others sang with all their hearts...So Baby Suggs, holy, having devoted her freed life to harmony, was buried amid a regular dance of pride, fear, condemnation and spite” (201-02).
ReplyDeleteThese last couple of chapters have almost completely altered the way that I saw Sethe towards the beginning of the book. She was illustrated as this selfless person because she lets it be known that she will do anything for her children, and the heart breaking- tear jerker that we constantly get from her is that the only thing she had to offer without help was her milk, no matter the circumstance. However, after the "saving my children/killing them" episode, it's extremely difficult to root for her. I chose this passage from Stamp Paid because I believe that it shows some selfishness on her part: Sethe decides that the best place for her mother-in-law to be buried is next to the killed baby that basically ended her own life. After Sethe had done that to her children, Baby Suggs looked forward to viewing the harmless aspects of life (color) and she had then bedridden herself. I think this was selfish of Sethe because it was almost like she wanted others to remember her painfully-killed-baby as much as they remember Baby Suggs, Holy.
"To this he believed his berries (which sparked the feast and the wood chopping that followed) were the reason Denver was still alive. Had he not been there, chopping firewood, Sethe would have spread her baby brains on the planking" (201).
ReplyDeleteI found this quote very interesting coming from Stamp Paid because it reveals a lot about both the way he feels about Denver, and the way he feels about himself. I found a touch of narcissism here, which is almost understandable, but given the circumstances doesn't seem all that relevant. But what's more interesting here is Stamp's attitude toward Denver, which is almost that of a grandfather or a village elder. We have brought up in class many times the Biblical implications Stamp's attitude entails, and this quote definitely speaks to that. Stamp is of two minds here, one is that he did what was right in saving Denver and he is awesome for it (which is where the narcissism comes in) but his other attitude is that by preventing the killing of Denver, he prohibited her from becoming something more in the abstract sense. He feels almost guilty for saving Denver because now she is just another teenage girl in a messed up family situation rather than the next Jesus Christ, which is possibly what she was intended to be from the moment Stamp brought her the berries, creating a wise men type of biblical situation). I apologize if this post is seemingly incoherent there's a lot of stuff going on in my mind about this part of the book and there is a lot to be said.
"'What I have to do is get in my bed and lay down. I want to fix on something harmless in this world.'"
ReplyDelete"'What world you talking about? Ain't nothing harmless down here."
"'Yes it is. Blue, That don't hurt nobody. Yellow neither.'" (211)
In this conversation Stamp Paid is recalling between him and Baby Suggs, we are able to see and understand why Baby Suggs seemed to have distanced herself from everyone after the killing of Beloved. Everything around Baby Suggs had managed to destruct in front of herself and she was not able to have control over anything happening. Baby Suggs is mad at the people in the community who would come to House 124 for their lack of warning when school teacher arrived. More importantly she is mad at the fact that white men had walked to easily into her home and had caused such destruction to her life and the lives of the important people who surrounded her. It makes sense that she would give up on speaking her Word to the other ex-slaves in the community because she feels almost as hypocrite if she tells them that they have complete control over the way their lives can be since they are all free now. Baby Suggs realized that she was not free at all after the killing of Beloved because of the power white people still had over colored people even in free states. Instead of dealing with her feelings of oppression by man, she focuses her thought on colors because they cannot cause destruction in her life and always appear to be appeasing to the eye and have no deceptive qualities like people do.
"Walking back through the woods, Sethe put an arm around each girl at her side. Both of them had an arm around her waist. Making their way over hard snow, they stumbled and had to hold on tight, but nobody saw them fall" (206)
ReplyDeleteThis passage affirms the notion that Seth is incapable of distinguishing herself from her children. Quite literally in this passage, Sethe's children are extensions of her. The imagery and symbolism of Sethe in the middle and each girl at her sides creates an image of one person - one conglomerate being that is made up of Sethe and her children. The unity Sethe has with her children as described here is "tight." She and her children are held closely together, and Sethe remains unwilling to - or incapable of grasping the idea of - disconnecting from her children. If she were able to do this here physically, perhaps they would not all have fallen and emotionally Sethe would be able to comprehend that she and her children are not the same person.
“After sixty years of losing children to the people who chewed up her life and spit it out like a fish bone; after five years of freedom given to her by her last child, who bought her future with his, exchanged it, so to speak, so she could have one whether he did or not- to lose him too; to acquire a daughter and grandchildren and see that daughter slay the children(or try to);…well, it could wear out even a Baby Suggs, holy” (209)
ReplyDeleteStamp does a really good job at summing up Baby Suggs life within this paragraph. Personally he does a great job at allowing us to feel empathy towards her. I understood her role in everyone’s life and how prominent of a character she is but it wasn’t until Stamps description that I really see how vital she was to each individual’s life. By reading about all her sacrifices and how lonely she was, it brought a more human side to her. A side which I felt lacked in the novel because she was seen as holy and high up. It allowed me to sympathize and connect with her more in addition feel sad about her life that did not seemed lived the way she wanted to live it.
"...Maybe he was not the high-minded Soldier of Christ he thought he was, but an ordinary, plain meddler who had interrupted something going along just fine for the sake of truth and forewarning, things he set much store by," (200).
ReplyDelete"So Baby Suggs, holy, having devoted her freed life to harmony, was buried amid a regular dance of pride, fear, condemnation and spite," (202).
Stamp looks up to Baby Suggs. She's a Christ-like figure to him, and he is a big believer in having faith. However, Baby Suggs is only human; she's not going to be a perfect, melodious and peaceful woman all the time. In this passage, we learn of Baby's reaction to the death of Beloved, and it isn't as peaceful and harmonious as Toni Morrison would've liked us to believe. She's kickin' and screaming, angry at Sethe about her killing, and she seems generally angry at the world as well. How can Stamp look up to someone who isn't all that they seem? It's because he has faith, and a whole ton of it at that, which can be perceived as either a good thing or a bad thing. You decide.
P. 170: “Now 124 was back like it was before Paul D came to town-worrying Sethe and Denver with a pack of haunts he could hear from the road. Even if Sethe could deal with the return of the spirit, Stamp didn’t believe her daughter could.”
ReplyDeleteI find this quote interesting as it offers two perspectives, one I already knew, and one that is new, on Denver. I always thought that Denver would be the one who was ready for the return of the Spirit, considering how close she is with Beloved and the false sense of comfort the baby ghost provided her. I always thought it would be Sethe who probably would not be able to handle it well, as it may stir up guilt that has been locked away for years. However, now that we know Sethe knows who Beloved really is, it seems as if I now agree with Stamp. Sethe seems happy now that she knows Beloved is her daughter, almost relieved of her guilt because she sees how much Beloved really loves her, despite what she did to her. It is Sethe who I am scared to see react once she realizes that her mother really knows, as I think she was trying to hide it from her in the past. No matter the façade, we still know that Denver’s relationship with Beloved is unhealthy, and that Stamp is right, although it may appear to be positive, Denver cannot deal with this spirit. Her obsessive nurturing tendancies show that something is definitely wrong with her. Maybe she really isn’t comfortable with Beloved but reverses these emotions? It is also strange how Stamp doesn’t know who Beloved is but still thinks he has brought the Spirit back to 124 by telling Paul D about what Sethe did…
"Deeper and more painful than his belated concern for Denver or Sethe, scorching his soul like a silver dollar in a fool's pocket, was the memory of Baby Suggs- the mountain to his sky. It was the memory of her and the honor that was her due that made him walk straight-necked into the yard of 124, although he heard its voices from the road."
ReplyDeleteThis quote really affirms the idea that Baby Suggs was somewhat of a prophet in her community. The description in this quote encapsulates how much respect Baby Suggs others had toward her. She is compared to a mountain, a massive object that covers so much land. If people saw her as that, they believed her to be a powerful, stable, and reliable object. They could put their trust in her, and be sure that nothing bad will come of it. Even after all this time, he thinks of her so highly, which shows the impression she made on others.
At first I believed that Stamp disliked Sethe and had something against her. I think he was just looking out for Paul D. He "began to worry about Sethe." (199) He feels really guilty and that one of the reasons he can't knock on the door at 124. He also really cares about Denver. He also helped her cross the river and risked a lot for her, which clearly shows that he does care for her. "The lateness of his consideration" made him "feel so bad." (200) He even goes on to say that maybe he should have given Sethe some time, because she would've told Paul D on her own.
ReplyDelete"He believed that shame put her in bed. Now eight years after her contentious funeral and eighteen years after the Misery, he changed his mind...After sixty years of losing children to the people who chewed up her life and spit it out like a fish bone; after five years of freedom given to her by her last child, who bought her future with his, exchanged it, so to speak, so she could have one whether he did or not.. to acquire a daughter and grandchildren and see that daughter slay the children.. It could wear out even a Baby Suggs holy"(208-209)
ReplyDeleteThis passage affirms what I already thought about Baby Suggs which was that even though she was strong and had been through a lot of terrible things, but watching Sethe try kill her own child was her last straw. I also think that this is a reflection on Stamp because at the beginning of the chapter he says that he is too old for clear thinking and that he had seen too much, justifying why he told Paul D about Sethe. By saying Baby Suggs stopped preaching because she was worn out, I think Stamp is justifying his decisions. Also, Stamp says that before he thought Baby Suggs quit because of shame, which I think may have played a small part in why she quit, because before she seemed slightly concerned with the disapproval that she felt from other people.
ReplyDeleteHe tugged and what came loose in his hand was a red ribbon knotted around a curl of wet woolly hair, clinging still to its bit of scalp…Rested, he got to his feet, but before he took a step he turned to look back down the road he was traveling and said, to its frozen mud and the river beyond, “What are these people? You tell me. What are they?”(212-213)
His disgust from the hairpiece he finds gives him the courage to attempt to enter 124 again in order to figure out what to do about Sethe. When he refers to “these people” and “they,” he not only refers to white people, but to Sethe, because the hairpiece reminds him of Sethe’s murder of the baby. Previously, I thought that Sethe had a mental disorder that bordered the sociopath/psychopath/bipolar/lapses of dementia realm. Although the disorder has not yet been revealed, this passage only reinforces how sick Sethe is. Her ecstasy after having discovered Beloved’s identity reveals her lack of guilt, lack of a moral compass, and her disgusting degree of pride that springs from extreme narcissism. Rather than feeling the maternal obligation of creating or even confirming at least an illusion of trust with Beloved, Sethe is glad that she no longer has to explain herself, as if Beloved’s opinion of Sethe was more important than their relationship.
"Deeper and more painful than his belated concern for Denver or Sethe, scorching his soul like a silver dollar in a fool's pocket, was the memory of Baby Suggs—the mountain to his sky" (201).
ReplyDelete"So Baby Suggs, holy, having devoted her freed life to harmony, was buried amid a regular dance of pride, fear, condemnation, and spite" (202).
These two quotes continue to support the idea that Baby Suggs is treated as this godlike holy leader. She "devoted her freed life to harmony" as an act of pure good, and this idea that Baby Suggs is purely good remains true. The fact that she is described as a mountain gives this impression of a powerful, grounded presence that complements the airy, unthethered air of the sky. Her being also had left such an impact on those who knew her, so that her memory is described as scorching.
Here, it seems like Stamp Paid believes that Sethe needs Paul D in order to bring her happiness. However, this kind of goes against what I thought about Sethe. To me, it seems like Sethe has been independent for a long time that she really does not need to rely on someone else, even if it is just to be happy. Furthermore, although Paul D has made her happy throughout his stay in 124, I’m not exactly sure whether he has made her happy enough for her to be unable to move on without him, especially given that she doesn’t seem to be devastated after Paul D says that he is going to leave.
ReplyDeleteStamp: "You saying the whitefolks won? That what you saying?"
ReplyDeleteBaby Suggs: "I'm saying they came in my yard." (211)
This quote contradicts my preconceived ideas of why Baby Suggs gave up on life. Previously I believed that she, like everyone else, blamed Sethe for Beloveds death now it seems like she is blaming schoolteacher. When Stamp asks her why she has given up speaking in the clearing all she will say is "They came in my yard" not even mentioning Sethe. This also explains why Sethe does not feet more guilt for what she has done and does not seem to think that Baby Suggs entirely blames her for her actions. In terms of stamps perspective it may make him more lenient with Sethe because Baby Suggs was.
"She should have known that he would behave like everybody else in town once he knew. The twenty-eight days of having women friend, a mother-in-law, and all her children together; of being part of a neighborhood; of, in fact, having neighbors at all to call her own-- that was long gone and would never come back. No more dancing in the clearing or happy feeds" (204).
ReplyDeleteThroughout the beginning of the book, I saw Sethe as a strong independent woman who was able to take care of herself and didn't need Paul D to save her, however, after reading this quote, Stamp Paid seemed to believe that Sethe really did need all the compassion and people around her. He believes that she is broken after her "rough response to the Fugitive Bill" (201). He calls it a rough response because it was an act she had to do in order to protect her children, who she loved most in her life. In this quote, Stamp sounds like Sethe's parental figure and he wants the best for her.
"Stamp Paid raised his fist to knock on the door he had never knocked on and he couldn't do it. Once Stamp brought you a coat, got a message for you saved your life or fixed the cistern he took liberty of walking in your door as through it were his own"(203)
ReplyDeleteHere it seems that if he doesn't feel like he has the power over other person, he doesn't want to be in their presents. He wants people to feel like they owe him, so he can feel safe that no one will try to turn on to him. He seemed like a very normal guy. This thing that happened showed that he is insecure in himself. it seems that he is so concerned of how other people will act towards him.
“"One or the other might have saved her, but beaten up by the claims of both, she went to bed. The whitefolks had tired her out at last”-212
ReplyDeleteIt seems that Stamp paid has finally realized the extent of Baby Suggs deterioration and the taxation on her soul that came with living as a black person. Previously, he had just assumed she wasn’t being strong enough, that she wasn’t realizing her full potential. But, his epiphany here illustrates the opposite and squares the blame, not on Baby Suggs herself but on those who had created and forced the conditions upon her. He realizes his naivety in thinking that a mountain like Baby Suggs could not break down like marrow does. It’s interesting to note that these thoughts and flashback coincide with his deterioration and breakdown. It gives us a glimpse of his narcissistic nature, a side we have not yet been fully exposed to.
“Now, too late, he understood her. The heart that pumped out love, the mouth that spoke the word, didn’t count. They came in her yard anyway and she could not approve or condemn Sethe’s rough choice. One or the other might have saved her, but beaten up by the claims of both, she went to bed.” (212)
ReplyDeleteStampy begins to realize Baby Suggs had no control of what would later happen. At first, I was a bit skeptical about Baby Suggs’ collapse because it would not make sense for Sethe to suddenly decide to kill her children. It just seemed to me that Baby Suggs had something to do with her own collapse. What I also noticed about Baby Suggs was how she lost faith in god as a result of the misery. Even Stampy told her not to blame god in the conversation he regretted. No matter how much Baby Suggs preached to those in 124 and how happy it was during those 28 days, she still experienced this misery.
Pg. 210:
ReplyDeleteStamp: "You missed the Clearing three Saturdays running...Folks came"
Baby Suggs: "Folks come; folks go"
[Talking about The Word] "That's one other thing they took away from me"
This passage affirms my beliefs that everyone, including Holy Suggs, has a breaking point. Paul D met his breaking point when he was muzzled in front of the rooster. Sethe has had multiple breaking points, one of which was when she killed her own baby. Baby Suggs has withstood an immense amount of pain and misery in her life, yet through it all has continued on, even while putting almost everyone else before herself. Sethe killing Beloved broke Baby. This also affirms my beliefs that Sethe has felt guilt towards Baby, although Baby does place the blame on schoolteacher on page 211. Stamp pleads for Baby to continue spreading the Word, telling her she can't quit the Word. I find his pleading very strange and almost selfish when he says "I don't care what all happen to you" (209), because it seems nobody cares what has happened to Baby. Everyone expects her to carry herself while caring for others. This passage made me feel bad for Baby, as it helped me see that she helped everyone else when they were in need of helping, but now that Baby is in need of helping others continue to expect her to help them instead of herself.
P. 210 when Stamp Paid talks to Baby Suggs.
ReplyDelete"You missed the Clearing three Saturdays running," he said.
She turned her head away and scanned the house along the street.
"Folks came," he said.
"Folks come; folks go," she answered.
"Here, let me carry that." He tried to take her bag from her but she wouldn't let him.
"I got a delivery someplace long in here," he said. "Name of Tucker."
They walked a bit, his pace slowed to accommodate her skip.
"Well?"
"Well, what?"
"Saturday coming. You going to Call or what?"
"If I call them and they come, what on earth I'm going to say?"
"Say the Word!" He checked his shout too late. Two whitemen burning leaves turned their heads in his direction. Bending low he whispered into her ear, "The Word. The Word."
"That's one other thing took away from me," she said, and that was when e exhorted her, pleased with ther not to quit, no matter what. The Word had been given to her and she had to speak it. Had to.
As Stamp replays this moment in his head, he realizes that he wasn't as sympathetic or empathetic to Baby Suggs. I feel like this was probably the last time Baby Suggs could handle mothering someone or something. The people that dissaproved of her after the blueberry scene represent a child. She couldn't handle being strong for everyone. Maybe she feels really bad that she couldn't be there for them due to her way of constantly mothering them, but she also just gave up on trying to do something right because most of the time something bad happened.
"Her authority in the pulpit, her dance in the Clearing, her powerful Call (she didn't deliver sermons or preach- insisting she was too ignorant for that- she called and the hearing heard)-all that had been mocked and rebuked by the bloodspill in her backyard. Instead she told Stamp she was going to bed and think about the color of things." (208)
ReplyDeleteStamp Paid's perspective towards Baby Suggs makes it possible for the readers to feel empathy towards her. In my opinion, his perspective is objective with truth. He affirms my opinion about Baby Suggs as being a spiritual being who believed that things will get better. Her hearing was a way to cope with the traumatic events of her slavery days. Everything has been taken away from her, her kids, her family, her identity, and even her self. The hearing was not a way for Baby Suggs to help her discover who she is but most likely an affirmation that she does have a Self. After the "bloodspill", Baby Suggs loneliness was more apparent and one can assume fhsf the acts jn the Clearing were a manifestation of her repression. As Stamp Paid describes it, everything she did in the Clearing (the name clearing hints that the place was used for a cleansing of the bad events of the Negroes' life, including hers) was mocked and rebuked, therefore confusing her and questioning if there really would be a time where she is genuinely happy.
"Stamp Paid raised his fist to knock on the door he had never knocked on and he couldn't do it. Once Stamp brought you a coat, got a message for you saved your life or fixed the cistern he took liberty of walking in your door as though it were his own"(203)
ReplyDeleteThis quote showed the power Sethe can have over people, and how she forces them away. 124 was once an open and loving house when Baby Suggs was in charge and Stamp is a man that felt welcome not only in this house but in the houses of others whom he had helped through the work he does. Sethe however made Stamp feel like a stranger or a guest instead of a part of the family, or a reason the family existed like he usually did. This quote also reinforces the image of fear and power that surrounds Sethe similar to the fear Paul D felt when he first agreed to enter the house and what chased off Howard and Buglar.