1) post a discussion question that addresses one of the psychoanalytic readings
AND Alice (anything from ch. 1-4). That means ONE question that attempts to
apply psychoanalytic theory (Freud, Bettelheim, one of the Dreams authors) to the story.
2) respond to someone else’s discussion question (agree, disagree, offer a different piece of evidence, and explain yourself)
Have Alice's doubts of her intellect stemmed from her parents' probable pressure on her to be a certain way? Is her dream recreating these feelings she has about herself and her parents' influence on her in order to try and cope with it? Come to terms with it? Reject it entirely? Is her mind just playing tricks on her? I am very intrigued.
ReplyDelete(Reconstruction of Trauma, Dowling)
I totally agree Kate. In chapter 4, Alice finds another bottle labeled “Drink Me,” and states: “I know something interesting is sure to happen…I’m quite tired of being such a tiny little thing” (44). This quote seems to relate to your question about how Alice always feels pressure to be a certain way, possibly from her parents. She seems to always have a desire to consume things that will alter her in some way, and never seems satisfied with just being herself, or her regular height. Another significant part from the reading would be when all of the animals came up to her, expecting prizes, yet she had no idea what to do because she didn’t have any. This could also relate to the fact that people, probably her parents, have always expected things from her that she can no longer provide or live up to, this scene almost serving as a reconstruction of that trauma.
DeleteI think that Alice's doubts of her intellect could definitely have stemmed from familial pressure. Throughout Chapters 1 and 2, Alice always refers to her sister Ada who is the smart and pretty one while Mabel is the simpleton of the sisters, according to Alice. There might be a possibility that Alice is often compared to both of her sisters in different aspects and is never regarded as an individual. By taking risks such as drinking the "Drink Me" bottle, Alice is able to develop not only confidence in herself but make compromises between her id and superego, ultimately developing the ego.
DeleteDo the different animals depicted in the beginning of chapter 3 (the mouse, dodo, eaglet, lory, etc..) represent different facets of Alice’s personality? For example, the mouse displays an assertive, know-it all quality, much like the condescending tone Alice acquired when she criticized Mabel, the Lory seems to defy authority, not really listening to the mouse, and the eaglet is not afraid to question the mouse, honestly displaying his confusion by his big words, something that Alice may wish to do in school, based upon her limited understanding of math and geography. She even goes on to say that it seems “as if she has known [the animals] all her life (30), which can be seen as proof that these animals are supposed to be a part of her. This analysis is based off of “Representation of Self” by Eisnitz.
ReplyDeleteI interpreted the Eaglet as a direct representation of Alice and her insecurities about her intellect. The Eaglet recognizes that the other animals use words that they do not understand, just as Alice notices her misuse of the words “longitude” and “latitude” (14). The usage of animals also corresponds with Freud’s emphasis on how symbolic animals can help children recognize their realities.
DeleteI definitely agree with you. In a dream, every single things represents something about the dreamer's life or personality, wants/fears. In fact, Eisnitz says, "yet just about every dream, resulting for the most part from stimuli arising from within, must depict something about the dreamer," (72). From this, we can infer that all the animals shown in Alice in Wonderland represent some part of Alice, perhaps each representing a different part of her personality––even Dinah, who isn't even really present.
DeleteI agree as well. It is totally possible that these animals when brought together make up the different parts of Alice. I think that the way the mouse wanted to listen and care about what Alice had to say but kept leaving connects to back in the beginning of the book when Alice stops listening to her sister and runs away and ends up down the rabbit hole. The mouse represents how she cares for others but she is just to young to know it yet.
DeleteI agree with you, Jaad. In addition to what you said, I think the fact that the dodo bird is extinct could be telling of Alice's feelings of uselessness or uncertainty about who she is as a person. She may feel like she is obsolete and irrelevant in her own life, just as a dodo bird is today.
DeleteThis is an extremely interesting viewpoint and I do agree with you. I feel as if the animals represent Alices multifaceted personality. She desires to be in control of her life (although the dreams demonstrates her lack of control) but the mouse that comes to the story demands the animals to all "sit down" and "listen to [him]"(13). Suggesting Alice's need for control.
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ReplyDeleteIn Freud’s analysis of children’s dreams, he notes the frequent aggressiveness that is transformed into anxiety. Alice’s dream occurs in the opposite manner than Freud’s findings (she begins by being anxious in the rabbit hole, but soon develops an aggressive attitude towards the animals). Is Alice’s violent actions a matter of role reversal, or are these cases of aggression simple representations of an immature ego developing defense mechanisms?
DeleteThats a great point Ana and I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do believe that anxiety is very much present throughout the chapters we read opposed to aggression which was in a momentary part. You can defiantly say her immature ego has a lot to do with what she projecting unto other characters, shes in a constant anxious state because shes in search for her identity whether its found through other animals or her experiences. In chapter II she asks herself "was I the same when I got up this morning...who in this world am I? Ah, that's the great puzzle?" (Carroll 8). Alice's questions can only be answered by the journey ahead of her, which defiantly could bring upon frustration and more anxiety due this continuous cycle of not understanding who she is.
DeleteIs is possible that Alice's fantasy is so real to her because she is not secure in her own reality? According to Bettelheim one can only stray away from infantile projections when they are in a state of security. Assuming Alice is being neglected and ignored by her parents and others around her could it be that her fantasies are her trying to find security and answers to the knowledge (which she was given by someone else) she continuously spews out in Chpt II?
ReplyDeleteMiranda I believe that you are right. I think that in Chapter 2 especially, with the Mouse who doesn't really pay attention to anything that Alice says, is a Reconstruction of Trauma as Dowling puts it. I say this because she can be reconstructing a time when here parents might have ignored her for their own benefit. I think that this point is proven correct when we see the Mouse tell her his story and how he is angered by her ignoring him.
DeleteThis is a great question, and it's something I wondered as well. I agree that Alice is not secure in her reality, which is why her fantasy appears to be real. In chapter 2, Alice is contemplating the decision to get out of the rabbit hole. She goes on to say, "'Who am I, then? Tell me that first, and then, if I like being that person, I'll come up: if not, I'll stay down here till I'm somebody else.'" The fact that Alice does not want to go up unless she's someone she likes being underscores her own insecurities. It conveys that she feels more comfortable in her fantasy since she feels she can only go back to reality if she's someone who's not Mabel, whom she criticizes throughout the reading. She seems to feel that she can't confront her reality unless she likes who she is.
DeleteIn Chapter 3 of Alice in Wonderland, we see that there are multiple animals besides the Mouse and the White Rabbit that are a little bit random; IS it possible that these animals in her dream are symbols of her alter egos, and if so, is this Eisnitz's reconstruction of self?
ReplyDeleteI think that each of the animals could represent a part of herself, but I feel like they could also represent the people in her own life, and like in real life she is reaching out because she wants a friend. When she offends the mouse she begs him "please come back and finish your story!" (27). She seems like she is either reaching out to the animals because she is lonely, or the animals each represent a part of herself, and she is trying to figure out what type of a person she wants to be so I do think that the animals could each represent a certain side of her. I think the reason she wants to please all of the animals so badly is that she doesn't really know her identity yet, and this is her way of trying to find out who she is.
DeleteYes, going alone with the theory that children use fantasies to answer fundamental questions about themselves (which Alice openly ponders on page 13), it is possible, not only that these animals are self-reflections of Alice, but in fact are reflections of the many selfs she may come to posses. This population of different animals, all with their own personalities, reflects many different personalities that Alice is trying out. This makes sense in light of the fact Alice seems, at times, confused by who she actually is (see page 14).
DeleteDo you think that the animals that Alice plays with, since they are all small, are symbols for friends her age in the real world? Does she continue to bring up the wrong subjects and scare off the other children like she continues to do with these animals so she is left with no friends like how she is left alone at the end of chapter 3? Do you think her subconscious brings this up on purpose because she normally represses it and now she has to deal with it?
ReplyDeleteThe animals with Alice do symbolize her friends in the real world. In the beginning of Chapter 3 for instance, it describes how "it seemed quite natural They may also represent her loneliness in real life because of how the animals single her out. For instance , after the Caucus-race, the Dodo give the prices to everybody since they all won. Alice's friends may treat her the same way. Not only does it represent how her friends treat her, but also her struggle to fit in. As you mentioned, she does continue to bring up the wrong subjects, which scares the animals off. Her struggle to fitting in also shows when she had trouble paying attention to the mouse's story. She has trouble knowing how to interact with other kids and therefore is left alone. This could relate to Scott Dowling's Reconstruction of Trauma because maybe Alice had a similar moment with her friends where she might have said something that angered them and told her to leave.
DeleteIt seems like Alice's parents haven't been very present in her life in the book, so is it possible that White Rabbit is representative of one of her parents? Are the other animals represent other characteristics her parents have? Are these animals in the dream because what Alice really wants is to feel closer to her parents?
ReplyDeleteI was thinking something similar. It seems that her parents don't really have time for her, which is something the White Rabbit refers to again and again. Also I think it's significant that she had very little interaction with the White Rabbit, even though she was obviously very curious about him, which is why she went down his hole in the first place. Most of the other animals in the dream ignore her too, which makes me think that you are correct in saying they are substitutions for some one who ignores Alice in the real world, most likely her parents (but it could also be her sister, friends etc...)
DeleteI had a very similar interpretation of the situation as well. Her parents not being present is a clear indication of them either not treating her correctly or not really caring for her. The White Rabbit always is leading and she loses it sometimes, showing that it might not be waiting for her and not caring where she is currently at. On page 24, the White Rabbit "started violently, dropped the white kid-gloves and the fan, and skurried away into the darkness as hard as he could go."
DeleteWhat does Alice's fixation on her feet and how she will care for them may reflect about her personal life at home? Which psychoanalyst's theory would best support this idea?
ReplyDeleteFrom what I've gathered so far in the text, it doesn't really seems like Alice's parents are present in her life, and she doesn't have a lot of companions around her except for her cat. During the seen where she is growing and her feet are so far I think she feels bad because she won't be able to take care of them the same way, reflecting how her parents might not be taking care of her in the same way.
DeleteAs if right now in the story, we only know so little about Alice's life back home so we can't really tell weather this is a real problem at home, but we can definitely infer that this child has some issues with her appearance in general, but I think that either Dowling or Gillman would fit this best because both deal with the psychoanalytically aspect of the child past and how it can or cannot affect the child in a negative or positive way in the fantasy or in real life.
DeleteIn Alice's dream, is it significant that tons of details are given? In most of the dream examples laid out by Freud and the other dream theorists, the dreams are short, to the point and have relatively easy symbols and substitutions to identify. Alice's dream is totally different however, because not only is the dream 80 pages long, but in the first four chapters alone, enough is given, I would argue, to piece together a decent analysis of Alice. Will the sheer volume of details add to our analysis of Alice's waking being, or will they distract us from what's important?
ReplyDeleteI think you might be on to something Victor. Gillman's theories that dreams are resistance might be present here. All these symbols and images might just be red herrings for the reader, and not allow the reader to look into Alice's psyche with ease. Although it could be the other way and all these images are representations of Alice, similarly to how Eistinz theorizes. This would allow us to have a very good view of Alice's psyche as she is giving out so much detail and allowing the reader to work with a lot of information.
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ReplyDeleteDoes Alice not wanting to grow up, after she eats cake and drinks the potion, show resistance as said by Gillman? Does her crying show resistance and that she doesn't want to grow up?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you and believe that Alice does not want to grow up and that shows resistance, but I also think that the representation of her size and her emphasis on her feet show that there is conflict and tension that is threatening her. She has problems with growing up, but she does not want to be a child either, I believe this is because her parents are absent in her life.
DeleteEvery time Alice grows or shrinks, she complains. The first time she shrinks, "she found she had forgotten the little golden key"(12). The first time she grows she is unable to fit through the door. When she shrinks again, she is drowned in her own tears. I agree that Alice does not want to grow up, shown through her dissatisfaction when she is "big" in her dream, but I would also add that she is unsatisfied with being an adolescent. She cannot find a middle ground, or the gray area that Bettleheim describes. She has identification issues, which help support this claim: "But if I'm not the same, the next question is, Who in the world am I?"
DeleteHave Alice's insecurities about her knowledge and self appearance stemmed from some sort of conflict with her parents and peers or the idea that she is incapable of living within the gray area? Could Alice be using the many animal references as a form of substitution for the people in her reality or are they tiny fragments of "herself" that she is trying to represent within her dream in order to fully discover who she truly is (Eisnitz)? Or could it possibly be that she is using the animals and the fantasy as a way to deny or cope with her outer chaos (Freud)?
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that much of what Alice is experiencing is a reflection of her own loneliness in her real life? Her cat, Dinah, whom she talks about at great length and appears to posses great affection for, could be a reversal for her cold and callus parents who show little affection toward Alice. Furthermore, the large congregation of animals in her puddle of tears could more literally represent a desire to not be alone.
ReplyDeleteInteresting point, Noah. I think it is very possible that Alice's cat Dinah, who she keeps referring back to could represent her longing for affection from her parents. Perhaps this is an example of Gilman's theory of dreams being resistance. The congregation of animals that Alice encounters - particularly when she is stuck in the White Rabbit's house because they are angry at her - could be her mind resisting confronting trauma of being ostracized by her peers. It would probably be easier for her to deal with by making her peers less harmful animals in her fantasy as opposed to confronting the reality of what really might have happened with her peers or family.
DeleteIs it possible that Dinah is a representation of Alice's true self and because the animals are always frightened away by the mention of her, Alice is insecure about who she is? Alice is hesitant about mentioning Dinah as not to scare the animals away, but if she ever does speak about her, which she seems very eager to do, it is not received well by the others. Instead of appreciating what she is saying, the bird all fly away and she is left alone, abandoned. According to Bettelheim's idea that fantasy helps children make sense of their feelings, Alice might be using Dinah to reveal to herself that she is uncomfortable with who she is and how she fears judgment from others.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this and I also think its interesting that she seems to takes care of Dinah very well, worrying about her milk and things like that when it is clear that her parents do not take care of her. This could show that she is fond of her true self although others aren't.
DeleteI agree with your point; it's a very interesting perspective to place Dinah in. The lack of attention the other animals and her parents give Dinah can represent the lack of attention given to Alice herself. The animals can represent other people around her in her actual reality and how distant she is from her family and others. Alice tries very hard to protect and take care of Dinah, in other words, if we're inferring that dinah is a representation of herself, she tries very hard to take care of herself and present herself, however, everyone is too scared of her and don't care much for her. She's searching for her true self and possibly Dinah is just that side of her that she feels most comfortable around. This can also make you think about why she's so insecure about herself (her knowledge and appearance). Maybe that lack of attention caused her to be this way.
DeleteWhat is the significance of Alice having a fairytale like dream at this age? "When I used to read fairytales,I fancied that kind of thing never happened, and now here i am in the middle of one!"(46) Could this show her fear of growing up and losing this kind of imagination. Perhaps she is using the dream to cling on to her childhood. The significance of the word "used" also shows that she already views herself as more of an adult than a child.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that all of these animals, like the rabbit with the pocket watch and jacket by the lake and the mouse in the rabbit hole, are a representation of different instittions/ parts of Alice's personality? It can be shown by the rabbit because he is dressed older, and has a schedule to upkeep like an adult, possibly showing her anxiety for adulthood. It can also be seen in the mouse that is constantly talking about himself.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the White Rabbit and the mouse can both be seen (among many other characters) as representations of Alice's subconscious. I think particularly with the mouse you see a representation of Alice's ID and her primal desire to be listened to and understood. When the mouse is sharing it's story it is surrounded by animals who want to hear it and are egging him on, a stark contrast to Alice who has been mumbling/talking to herself for the majority of the book and is ignored or blown off when trying to reach out to another character.
DeleteIt is important to note Alice's reaction after the White Rabbit demanded that she finds him a pair of gloves and a fan. Does this imply that the White Rabbit represents Alice's fear or hatred of authoritative figures in general? It may not just be her parents.
ReplyDeleteI think we should take into consideration Alice's reaction but also the symbolism of the "kid gloves and the white fan". When I read that part, I viewed the gloves and fan as something to protect her from the world to create a disguise or to protect her purity or her state of mind. She says, "Dear, dear! How queer is everything to-day! And yesterday things on just as usual. I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I remember feeling a little different. But if I'm not the same, then the next question is, who am I?" (PDF so no page number.) Also, in history the gentile or the upper class wore gloves and had fans. I haven't exactly made the connection from that to the gloves if there is one. I do not think that she might have a fear of authoritative figures. Throughout the book, we can implore that she is very lonely, and because of that she might be in her head thinking a lot. I think she's just being conscious of the fact that she might be changing into an adult, and she isn't exactly sure how to deal with it. That's why she maybe seems to go to the extreme to asking who am I as she feels like she's a blank slate and she doesn't realize that she can change a bit and still be herself.
DeleteYes, this is very important. I believe that the White Rabbit illustrate's Alice's ego. Alice feels like she is being controlled and that her id is being trampled on. At the end of chapter 3, she is incredibly oblivious and rude by speaking about Dinah chasing after mice and birds IN FRONT of the mouse and bird. This is why the White Rabbit, Alice's ego, sets into action and tries to lessen her pride by treating her like a maid. It's like putting her in her place.
DeleteI think that she may hate authority figures but that she also follows them, as revealed by her always eating the things that say "eat me" or "drink me"(very clearly these are orders). She consumes the things despite her knowledge of their danger since she keeps on doing them and having dreadful results. However, I do not see how the rabbit shows any fear of it yet. I may in the future.
Why does Alice say "Let us get to the shore, and then I'll tell you my history, and you'll understand why it is that I hate cats and dogs" after saying how much she liked her cat Dinah and this dog that a nearby farmer has? Would she change herself just to feel like she had a friend?
ReplyDeleteI'm not exactly sure what if that would be something she would do in real life to acquire friends. It kind of goes with the idea of replacing actions in the dream with what actually happens or would happen in real life if she were in the same situation.
DeleteI'm pretty sure the mouse said that
DeleteAlice can, to a certain extent, control her size in her fantasy by drinking from the "Drink Me" bottle and eating the "Eat Me" cake. Could this be Alice's way of using fantasy to feel more secure about having control over the chaos in her life?
ReplyDeleteI do think this is Alice's way of feeling more secure about having control over the chaos in her life. Ana Freud argued that children are often in control of what role they play in their fantasies. In Chapter 6, "These tales, like the animal fantasies, acquire their pleasurable character through the complete reversal of the real situation. The child appears not only as the person who owns and controls..." It is interesting to note that Alice was not shocked but rather suspected what the potion and the cake will do to her. When she lost control because she couldn't reach the right height, it frustrated her and she began worrying about her feet. But later in Chapter 3, she said that she must get a little bigger, and make her way to the garden but perhaps she must eat or drink something. She was looking for something to increase in size. Her role in her fantasies is reversal and perhaps is a better way to cope with her reality.
DeleteDo you think that because Alice does not have adult reasoning, but instead her thinking is animistic that she has trouble understanding what is happening to her and has similar questions to "Who am I?" In chapter 2, Alice is trying to understand why she does not recognize herself and believes that she may have turned into one of her friends. When she goes through their personalities she convinces herself that she is not herself but someone else (Mabel) because she is not as smart as she. So I was just wondering if the purpose of her dream is to figure out who she is and what is her purpose in life?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Alice forget to take the key two times? Does the key represent a doorway to adulthood that she is perhaps not ready for? Maybe she keeps forgetting it because, subconsciously, she knows she is not ready to take on the responsibilities of a new world, or a new stage of life. Her fear of the unknown could be holding her back from successfully progressing and transitioning into maturity. However, as the story progresses and she gets stuck inside the White Rabbit's house because she grows too big, I wonder if this means she has now reached the point of being too grown up for the stage in life she is labeled under and feels she is stuck there and needs to get out. This could mean that she is ready to move to adulthood or something close to it but people in her life, maybe her distant parents or peers, (i.e the group of animals throwing pebbles at her) is getting in her way and pressuring her to move when she otherwise would be naturally ready to do so on her own.
ReplyDeleteBettelheim argues that "since the child is so uncertain of what his existence consists first and foremost comes the question 'Who am I?'" Do you think Alice is uncertain about her existence since she is constantly asking herself "Who am I?"
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Alice's narcisism is increasing as the book progresses(since it's all a dream)? Is it a good thing for someone's narcisism to be really intense in a dream since this could decrease the amount of it in daily life? I am using Eisnitz as my base for this since he belives that sleep is a necessary means for people to indulge in narcisism and self absorption. In other words, do you think that people would be more narcisistic in their conscious daily life if they got less sleep?
ReplyDeleteIn Freuds dream theory, he states that dreams are solely the desires of the ID and are made apparent with in the dreams. Does this theory, explain Alice's creation of a fantasy land, and her curiosity to unravel it?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Eisnitz, dreams are a representation of self. They are complete regressions to narcissism, which is comfort in knowing the dream revolves around the dreamer. Eisnitz argues that changing body parts always have an alternative meaning, a symbolism. Alice's reality can be seen by the change in her body parts. Does Alice's changing body parts represent the tension of her inability to decide whether she wants to stay an adolescent or grow up to become more mature? Does her complaining show her continuous dissatisfaction of her current situations?
ReplyDeleteCan Alice's fantasy and interaction with fantasy creatures (which are arguably a representation of herself) be seen as an attempt to build her confidence and security in reality by putting her in situations she feels unprepared for and forcing her to face different aspects of her subconscious? As Bettelheim wrote, fantasy and projection are ways of ensuring security for the child until they have self confidence and "growing rational abilities" and no longer need it.
ReplyDeleteWhat does Alice's need to always make herself useful say about her uncertainty of her existence and is it her way of answering Bettleheim's first and last questions?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Elsntiz, in a child's dream/fantasy are a direct self representation of themselves, would one say that in Alice's Fantasy that she is repressing the obvious who she really is from the other characters in the book, or does she really not understand the world she lives in enough to know who she really inside as a child?
ReplyDeleteHow does Alice's decision to go through the smallest door after falling for a while represent her curiosity for the unknown? What might the doors represent in this story based on what Freud thinks about symbols?
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